Georgia on Your Mind: An Event with President Salome Zourabichvili

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Mass demonstrations have been sweeping through Georgia since the country’s parliamentary elections in late October, which observers widely regard as fraudulent. The crisis escalated in November when Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze announced that Georgia would suspend its European Union membership talks until at least 2028.

In recent years, Kobakhidze’s Georgian Dream party has embraced a pro-Kremlin stance, denouncing Western sanctions against Moscow, deepening Georgia’s economic ties with Russia, and blaming the war in Ukraine on the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The party has maintained power by suppressing political opposition, civil society, and independent media. In defiance of these challenges, Georgians are courageously standing up to Russian influence—a noble cause that directly aligns with the United States’ national interests.

Join Hudson for a special address by freedom fighter and Georgian President Salome Zourabichvili, followed by remarks from Congressman Joe Wilson (R-SC) and an expert panel discussion.

Program

Introduction

• John P. Walters, President and CEO, Hudson Institute

Keynote Address

• President Salome Zourabichvili, President, Georgia (virtual)

Remarks

• Representative Joe Wilson, United States Representative, Second District of South Carolina

Panel Discussion

• Laura Thornton, Senior Director, Global Democracy Programs, McCain Institute
• Ambassador Kurt Volker, Former Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations and US Ambassador to NATO
• Luke Coffey, Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute

Moderator

• Peter Rough, Senior Fellow and Director, Center on Europe and Eurasia, Hudson Institute

Transcript

This transcription is automatically generated and edited lightly for accuracy. Please excuse any errors.

John P. Walters:

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I am John Walters, president and CEO of Hudson Institute. Welcome to this event on the political situation in the nation of Georgia. A warm welcome as well to those joining us online. I want to start out by noting that we are aware that today is a day of mourning in Georgia in regard to a tragedy in Gali, Georgia, currently occupied by Russia, where a house fire took the lives of an entire family of five young children. We feel this acutely today in the United States when we too are praying for and thinking about those who have lost so much due to fire in our own country in California.

Georgia is a vital American partner located in the strategic crossroads in the world. It has stood shoulder to shoulder with the United States in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. It spent its treasure, it shed its blood with Americans and others in the coalition.

Until recently, Georgia was regarded as a beacon of stability and democracy in an often turbulent region. However, Russia is very active in Georgia, subverting its democracy and governmental institutions. In 2008, Russia invaded Georgia and today continues to occupy 20 percent of the country’s internationally recognized territory. After more than 200 years of Russian imperialism, the Georgian people have a deep mistrust of their northern neighbor. Regrettably, in recent years, Georgia has been ruled by a group called the Georgian Dream that’s led the government in at least ways that are sympathetic to, if not often aligned, with Moscow.

Last May, the Georgian Dream government passed a so-called Russian law, legislation designed to suppress legitimate political opposition and civil society organizations. This deeply troubling move raised alarms inside and outside of Georgia. The conduct of the parliamentary elections in October further fueled concerns about subversion, but it was the government’s shocking decision in November to suspend EU membership talks until 2028 that sparked widespread demonstrations. These protests have brought hundreds of thousands into the streets in a powerful display of defiance. What we are witnessing now in Georgia goes beyond the Russian law or last October’s election. It is about Georgia’s future.

The protesters are determined to ensure that Georgia stays on its Euro-Atlantic path and does not become another Belarus in the Caucasus. These events are part of the wider geopolitical struggle between Russia and the West, and I would also say Central Asia. Georgians are standing up to Russia’s subversion and that is in the national interest of the United States.

Our event will examine what the United States should do in response to the developments in this critical region. We are honored to be joined by Congressman Joe Wilson of South Carolina, who will be formally introduced later in a few moments. But now it is my honor to welcome Georgia’s former president, Salome . . . I’m not good at these. I’m a Midwestern boy . . . Zourabichvili to speak here with us today via electronic connection to Georgia. Coming from a family of freedom fighters, Madam President continues this legacy with remarkable courage and determination under the circumstances. She’s on the front lines in Tbilisi, standing up to intimidation, aggression, and political persecution. Like many great leaders throughout history, she understands that the cause she supports transcends any individual. Please join me in warmly welcoming her.

Madam President, the floor is yours.

President Salome Zourabichvili:

Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. President. And I could not have described better the picture of where Georgia comes from and where Georgia is today. Just one small, but big correction, that I have to bring to your presentation, which is that I’m not the former president. I am the only legitimate president of Georgia even today despite the pretensions of the ruling party to have a new president, but I’ll come back to that.

The thrust of my presentation is to say why Georgia should be on your mind, on the mind of its friends and supporters today more than ever. And that is because Georgia, as you mentioned, has been one of the more secure, strong friends of the United States in the region and beyond the region at the time when we were needed in Afghanistan or in Iraq. We were one of the countries that has gone in this space called, I don’t like the word, but called the post-Soviet space.

It has gone through all these stages of building a democracy, building a state, building system in which human rights and human freedoms would be defended. We have had our ups and downs, but this past has been steady and the Georgian population has shared with its leaders until now, the ambition of joining the Euro-Atlantic community. And the support to this objective has been 80 percent and more over the last 30 years in all the ratings that were tested in the country. So, that is something that is really widely shared. That is the common ambition of the people of Georgia, and that is an ambition that was one, long time ago in the centuries ago, to join the community of values that it had with European countries.

Now, what happened in the recent years is that government that had been elected on the same program of advancing Georgia towards its Euro-Atlantic integration, and in fact this very party and majority was the one to introduce in the Constitution of Georgia, an article that puts the obligation to all institutions of Georgia to do the utmost, use all their efforts to favor and promote this integration of Georgia in the Euro-Atlantic community and the integration policy.

And suddenly this ruling party, Georgian Dream, really transforms itself into a Georgian nightmare or into a Russian dream, depending how we want to look at it, and takes this country gradually first and then in a more and more active way away from its partners with a very aggressive rhetoric against our American partners, against our European partners, very aggressive against the ambassadors in the country with, as you mentioned, the Russian law and other laws that are very Russian in their spirit and form, takes Georgia away from what has been the decades-long pass of reforms, trying to reform the justice system, introducing many laws to introduce some new standards, like European standards. The association agreement allowed us to go quite far down that road. And all of that suddenly, and it coincides more or less with the war in Ukraine, but starts a bit earlier, and suddenly we see the turn from our traditional strategic partners towards the non-strategic partners towards Russia.

And we see the country through a number of new laws being transformed into something that looks very much like the Russian laws and trying to put our society under these constraints. We have lost completely our justice system. There is no independent court. There is no independent institution today in Georgia except for the presidency, and that’s why I am so adamant to continue to incarnate this legitimacy. There is no independent institution that is not ruled by the one-party rule that exists in Georgia.

So, that structurally is very similar to what happens in Russia except that we have a very big difference, which is that we have a vivid civil society that has not accepted to be put under the control of this one-party and a very vivid society that has resisted the Russian law not once but twice, the year before and in 2024 because the ruling party reintroduced this law second time after having withdrawn it and promised that they would never again introduce it. But they are quite familiar with lies, which is also a Russian specificity to present black as white and white as black.

So, they’re taking gradually this country in that direction, which is not wanted by the very great majority of the population. And what happens with the elections is not a question of competition between two forces or two parties and one accusing the others of stealing the elections. It’s really an organized stealing of the elections that was well-planned, well-organized and inspired, supported by the Russians because it was so sophisticated and using so very different diversified means that it’s something that could not be just something improvised by the local authorities. This is a new strategy by Russia, and that’s why you should have Georgia on your mind because what is happening here is really the attempt by Russia to devise a new strategy using propaganda, using different interventions, using finances, using circumvention of sanctions and using their friends in the ruling party and their close connections to have a hybrid strategy. And there, they used elections in order to recuperate, I would say, Georgia, to try to make Georgia again as a country and a region under its own control.

I would say that it’s the alternative to what’s happening in Ukraine, not having been able to win the war in Ukraine because what’s happening, and we should also see that very clearly that Russia is in fact losing the war in Ukraine by not being able to win it. Not able to win it in three days as it had the first objective, neither in one year, nor in two years. And that’s a very major loss for the prestige of Russia, for its projection of very strong military power. And in many different respects, it’s very big loss for the Russian military strategy and human losses, of course, at the same time.

So, Russia is devising something much less costly, something in which it feels much better at ease because after all, Mr. Putin is a KGB man. And the hybrid wars, and propaganda wars and this use of elections in a different manner is something that is much more, I would say, in his realm and in the instruments that he can master. What we see in Georgia is something that has been attempted in Moldova. It has been attempted in a different manner in Romania. And if it were not for the Constitutional Court of Romania, probably things would’ve been different. And if it were not for the Moldovan diaspora, probably things would’ve been different.

The problem with Georgia is that we could not have the votes of our diaspora counted as they should have been, because they were prevented in masses to come and vote. And we didn’t have an independent constitutional court, who would’ve taken up the plea that I introduced in the Constitutional Court and that the political parties also introduced. But the strategy is there and I think it’s something that should be reflected, because it’s not a strategy that concerns only Georgia, or only Romania, or Moldova, but can apply, and will be applied if we do not do anything about it, to many other countries when they have elections.

We know that they have tried to intervene in different other Western European countries. So, I think that it’s the next big challenge that our partners should face and that’s why Georgia on your mind, but also for geopolitical reasons, because as you mentioned, Georgia has always been the stronghold in this region of democracy and of pro-Western, pro-European country that was following its path very steadily.

Now, if by any chance, and I think it won’t happen, but if this Russian strategy were to win, it would be other countries that would be winning over this part of the world. China has very many interests linked with the ruling party and the question of the next port in Anaklia, of the next airport in Tbilisi, all are at stake and there are discussions going on with the Chinese. We have seen the Georgian prime minister of the ruling party, Mr. Kobakhidze, going to Iran and siding with terrorist organizations.

So, that is at stake, not only democracy, not only Georgia’s future as a European country, but it’s also at stake the strategic control of this part of the world, of this Caucasus and of this Black Sea because Ukraine war is also about the Black Sea. And the control of Georgia is certainly about the Black Sea as the attempts against Romania and Moldova, because that’s something that Russia is really looking at very intensely, knowing that many of the major infrastructural projects for the next decades are going through the Black Sea and towards the Caspian Sea and towards Central Asia. All of that is under challenge and threat by Russia in what it’s trying to do today in Georgia.

So, it’s really Armenia’s future, which Armenia has been extremely courageous. Its new government has been extremely courageous to divert itself from the Russian influence and from trying to come back to the European path that it has left many years ago, and it was always under very strict control and pressure from Russia. What we are certainly seeing is anxiety from Armenia, because whatever happens in Georgia means that they have a chance for their European future or they don’t have a chance because isolated and closed in as they are, without a strong Georgian partner in this direction and sharing the same values, it’s very difficult to imagine that alone Armenia could really come back to its European path and to its partners.

So, many things are at stake in Georgia, and my message to you is that you have to hold on. We have been supported by our American friends and by our European friends in non-recognizing the results of the elections. And I think that is vital. If Russia thinks that it can get away with it, it’ll do it again and not only here. So, non-recognition policy, non-recognition of the non-legitimate government parliament and de facto president is essential to put the pressure. The sanctions are putting on their side a different type of pressure, because it’s pressuring not only the leaders of GD but also the first circle around them, which is what is like in any of those autocratic because they’re already an autocratic regime, a one-party regime. They are dependent on this first circle around them of privileged businessmen and of these institutions that they control and that are in their hands. So, sanctions are really digging into that and weakening this autocratic regime and this pro-Russian regime.

So, all of that should continue, but you should certainly help us to strive and to get to new elections because there is no other known way to get out of such a deep crisis like the one we are in today in Georgia. The only way is through new elections. New elections will happen, that’s something I’m convinced because there is not an example of a country that still has a civil society that is alive that where an autocratic one-man rule, one-party rule can long resist when it is completely disconnected from its population as we see. And now it’s the 42nd day that the Georgian population is on the streets and doesn’t seem to be weakening this protest, which is massive, which is all over the country and reaches out to all generations and all segments of the society. So, there is no way that that type of rule can continue.

Now, they can either come to terms and themselves accept to compromise about new elections, or will have to wait to something that is less stable and less something that this country would think, and would wish and that would be the disintegration of the ruling party itself of the regime by itself, but that’s a more unstable future. So, we should all work together on trying to push, to put pressure in all different manners on the existing de facto authorities, so that they accept to save themselves partly and to save the country from instability and to allow new elections that this country deserves and that its partners also deserve.

Thank you.

Joel Scanlon:

Thank you so much, Madam President.

Good morning. I am Joel Scanlon, executive vice president of Hudson Institute, and it is my distinct pleasure to welcome back to Hudson, our next keynote speaker, Congressman Joe Wilson, representing the 2nd district of the great state of South Carolina. Congressman Wilson is a senior member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, including its Subcommittee on Europe. And in his role as the chairman of the Helsinki Commission, he has been a steadfast advocate for the US-Georgia relationship.

Long before many others were paying attention, Congressman Wilson was a critic of the Democratic backsliding under the Georgian Dream government, and he has led meaningful efforts in Congress to hold accountable those undermining Georgia’s democracy. Just this week, along with Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen, he introduced the bipartisan Georgian Nightmare Non-Recognition Act. There’s no better person to explain why events in Georgia matter deeply to American interests and to discuss the path forward.

Congressman, thank you for your time this morning and your leadership on these important issues. Podium is yours.

Representative Joe Wilson:

Thank you so much. Thank you. And indeed, ladies and gentlemen, I’m just so grateful to be here with you. And indeed, I’m so happy to be here with the legitimate Madam President of Georgia, Salome Zourabichvili. And I’m grateful to be here with friends of free and fair elections of Georgia. And I do have a message for Madam, legitimate, President, and that is the American term for her speech, her inspiring speech is Amen. So, how inspiring this speech and how clear it is. So, friends of fair and free elections of Georgia, thank you for having me here today. And hey, I’m so grateful for the Hudson Institute. It’s vital for freedom and democracy in the world, and so congratulations on the success and the remarkable people that you have associated with the Hudson Institute.

Georgia and the United States have an extremely deep and strong relationship. Georgian soldiers fought side by side with American soldiers in Afghanistan. And it’s personal to me, my youngest son, Hunter Wilson, served for a year in Afghanistan as an engineer with troops from Georgia. So, I know personally how significant that is. I’m also grateful that on my visit to Tbilisi that I got to know the people of Georgia. And I know that the people of America and Georgia have a special bond. The nation of Georgia has a trained professional military, and I saw it firsthand because the troops of the state of Georgia through the National Guard State Partnership program trained together. So, it was really exciting to be there in Tbilisi to be at a parachute jump and look carefully on the patches to see who had the cross of St. George and who had the flag of the United States. So, they were indistinguishably wonderful troops together. This is why the Ivanishvili regime presents such a threat to the United States in freedom around the world.

Bidzina Ivanishvili is actually the would-be dictator of Georgia, is a puppet of war criminal Putin, the Chinese Communist Party and the regime in Tehran. He has fought to bring Georgia under the influence of the axis of invaders. This puppet prime minister went to meet with the murderous regime in Tehran at the very time the regime was planning the assassination of Donald Trump, also the assassination we have of Ambassador Nikki Haley, who is associated here on the list of victims.

We know that this regime corruptly gave the contract of a major deep sea port to the Chinese Communist Party against bids of the EU and the United States. He seeks to sell out Georgia and the Georgian people for the benefit of his dictatorship, which is maintained by rule of gun, instead of democracy, by rule of law. As war criminal Putin continues his efforts to recreate the failed Soviet Union, the Georgian people want freedom. They show over and over again they are now in over 40 days of protests with simple demand, free and fair elections. I’m so grateful again for the legitimate president of Georgia, Salome Zourabichvili, who has remained fervent in her call for free and fair elections in Georgia. She has become a singular leader in this critical moment. That’s why I have invited the legitimate President Zourabichvili to the inauguration of President Donald Trump in 10 days, and I’m really looking forward to welcoming her to Washington.

It needs to be noted that all legitimate election observers came to the same conclusion that the elections were rigged. That includes the International Republican Institute, the National Democrat Institute, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the unaffiliated organizations of Georgia itself all came to the conclusion that the elections were rigged. And as the legitimate president just pointed out, the diaspora would not allow to vote, which again is a very clear indication of rigging the election. I want to make it clear, I believe that Donald Trump supports freedom. I know he does. He tried so hard to avoid what happened, the invasion in Ukraine. He sent Javelin missiles to Ukraine to stop war criminal Putin’s invasion. He put American troops in Poland to deter war criminal Putin from invading Ukraine. And he blocked, as we all know, and stopped the financing of war criminal Putin by blocking Nord Stream 2.

So, over and over again, the policies of Donald Trump are very, very clear of standing for freedom and democracy in Central and Eastern Europe. The Ivanishvili regime has been pushing a lie that Trump will let them off the hook with their collaboration with the Chinese Communist Party and Iranian regime, but that’s not true at all. And Trump believes in maximum pressure. And particularly on the Iranian regime, he will not forget the plans that they had of his assassination. There will be maximum pressure on the Iranian regime and additionally, ultimately, then on their allies like the Ivanishvili regime.

I’m so grateful for the sanctions on Ivanishvili, which were announced last week. So, it’s bipartisan, the working together on behalf of the people of Georgia. And having these effective sanctions will increase under the, I believe, coming Trump administration, particularly with Marco Rubio, Senator Rubio, Secretary of State Rubio. His family fled from the failed Soviet empire of being the dictatorship in Cuba. It’s in the American interest to support Georgia. The Georgian people are freedom-loving people, who cherish the same values as the American people.

Moreover, Georgia is strategically located as a Black Sea nation and we must not let it slip into the orbit of the Chinese Communist Party or the regime in Tehran. It is key to the regional balance of power and trade routes. It’s really inspiring to see that actually the civilized world supports the people of Georgia. And I’m very, very grateful that I wanted to bring today to all of you a letter, the International Friends of Georgia. This is a letter that’s been signed by parliamentarians from throughout Europe. Last night I was at the Dutch Embassy and over and over again members of their parliament told me it’s universal support of fair and free elections in Georgia. And then Democrats and Republicans have signed this letter and I’d like to read it because it’s so clear.

We, the transatlantic legislators and former senior policy makers from across the political spectrum, call on all free and democratic governments to demand free and fair elections in Georgia and reject the illegitimate Ivanishvili regime. We call for a unified policy that no senior meetings should take place between free and democratic governments in this illegitimate regime until it agrees to new properly monitored and conducted elections. Additionally, we call for unified sanctions on Ivanishvili’s regime and Georgian Dream officials and propagandists undermining Georgian democracy in sovereignty. Ivanishvili’s Georgian Dream party has chosen to ignore the legitimate concerns of the opposition and international monitors about the recent elections, seated a one-party legislature and unilaterally elected a president. They have responded with brutality to nightly protests of hundreds of thousands of protesters. The Georgian people demand free and fair elections, and we must stand with them.

In Congress, I have reintroduced and it’s bipartisan and bicameral, House and Senate, Republican and Democrat, the MEGOBARI Act, and introduced the Georgian Nightmare Non-Recognition Act. Megobari means friend in Georgia. And pursuant to that idea, the MEGOBARI Act requires a review of all Georgian Dream officials and their immediate family members for sanctions. At the same time, MEGOBARI includes certification criteria for democracy and freedom that, when fulfilled, will require the United States to pursue a deeper relationship with Georgia.

The Georgian Nightmare Non-Recognition Act prohibits the United States from recognizing the Ivanishvili regime and recognizes President Zourabichvili as the legitimate president of Georgia until such time as Georgia holds free and fair elections. America has a long tradition of not recognizing tyrannical and illegitimate regimes. This began with the Soviet occupation in 1940 of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. We never gave up on their ability to be free, which they are today. The United States similarly does not recognize the Putin occupation of the Ukrainian Crimea or Georgian South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Most recently, thanks to the Assad regime, Non-Normalization Act, with over 330 votes in the US House, the United States did not recognize the Assad regime. And now that regime is also gone due to the great work of Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The Georgian Dream Nightmare Non-Recognition Act is based on these successes.

With this in mind, thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you today. The Hudson Institute is so important for democracy. I know the Georgian people will be free. I stand with the Georgian people and we’ll never let up. And now is the time for all of us to act on behalf of free and fair elections. God bless Georgia, God bless America. Thank you very much.

President Salome Zourabichvili:

If I may, I just want to thank Congressman Wilson and to forward to him not only my personal thanks for the support that he has given to Georgia and Georgian people, but to tell him that he’s probably today the most popular friend of Georgia in the Georgian population, and to say how much we appreciate the introduction of the MEGOBARI Act and of the Non-Recognition Act. This is the direction, the right direction, and what we need as a clear support from our friends. So, thank you again, and I’m very glad to be joining you in Washington. Thank you again for the invitation, which I will be gladly taking up.

Representative Joe Wilson:

And now, I need to race back for votes. So, anyway, everybody think ahead. Again, thank all of you for being in the Hudson Institute. And gosh, the legitimate president, make sure you always . . . It’s not president, it’s legitimate president.

God bless you. Thank you. Thank you.

Peter Rough:

Thank you Madam President, thank you Congressman Wilson for those set of keynotes, and we thought we would supplement those leadership remarks with a panel discussion, which we’ve put together. To put it more accurately, Luke Coffey has helped organize here at Hudson of three distinguished experts in all things Georgia.

My name is Peter Rough of Hudson, and I’m delighted to moderate the discussion consisting of Ambassador Kurt Volker, who represented our interests at NATO many moons ago and is now a distinguished fellow at the Center for European Policy Analysis, the aforementioned Luke Coffey here of Hudson Institute, who is our lead expert on Georgia and came to us from the Heritage Foundation, and Laura Thornton, senior director for Global Democracy Programs at the McCain Institute, previously senior vice president of the Democracy Hub at the German Marshall Fund of the United States.

I thought I would just begin with you, have each of you give a set of opening remarks. I know, Laura, you most recently were in Georgia just last month, December, which was only a few days ago. So, we can count on you for some insights on the ground. Perhaps then go to Kurt, who never is shy about his broader geopolitical analysis, which I’m sure we’ll get. And then perhaps Luke can bat cleanup for us.

So, Laura, the floor is yours. Thanks for being here.

Laura Thornton:

Thank you so much and thanks to Luke and Hudson for hosting this great event and, of course, to President Zourabichvili and Representative Wilson, who laid out a lot of the points that I was going to make as well.

So, I think I have three disparate points, but they do all lead to a specific task for us. And by us I mean Friends of Georgia. And the president, the legitimate president, commented on the first, which is about the elections. We recognize the government as unconstitutional. And non-recognition of Georgian Dream and a demand for new election has to go back to a very clear statement about the quality of the elections themselves. We’ve gotten clear statements from IRI and others. However, when I was in Tbilisi, I continued to get pushback about the challenges of declaring these elections illegitimate. And there is this quest for some quantifiable proof, and I think it goes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of how to evaluate elections. And not to nerd out and get too technical, but I did spend the last three decades leading election missions, training observers-

Peter Rough:

This is the expert panel, you’re free and welcome to-

Laura Thornton:

All right. I’ll keep it brief, but I think if someone is fixing the results, there are specific tools we can use. So, for example, in Venezuela, there is a process in place that has official protocols that confirm the results and are handed to opposition observers. And the opposition was prepared, got the data, encrypted it, or most of the data, and could prove definitively that they won. There’s a tool called a parallel vote tabulation, where you simultaneously count the results together with election officials in either all the polling stations or a statistical sample, and you can prove definitively if the results are legitimate. That’s why Marcos fled the Philippines in 1986.

When you’re fixing the vote, this is trickier and you’re not going to get a mathematical equation. And fixing the vote is what happened in Georgia through a combination of things that the president referred to, whether it’s double voting, illegal voting, intimidation, vote buying, stealing IDs, secrecy, all these things. So, a parallel vote tabulation isn’t going to help you in that scenario, because garbage in, garbage out. So, that is my first point because I think it’s something that we need to get people rallied behind and I wasn’t comfortable that I was hearing from our own diplomats some resistance to declaring these elections illegitimate.

My second point, briefly, is about putting Georgia into that broader context. And Kurt can talk a lot more about the geopolitical implications of that. I think we’ve talked significantly and adequately about Georgia as a Russia project, but I think it’s really important to put Georgia into that broader field of autocrats Inc. We’ve talked a little bit about China’s influence, for example, Iran’s influence. And when I was in Georgia, I met with the Azeri community and learned a lot more about Iranian involvement in the GD campaign, but also part of the broader trend unfortunately, that we’re seeing around the world of rising illiberalism and autocracy. That includes, for example, allegations that Viktor Orban’s spin doctor was helping Georgian Dream manipulate the elections. This is important because, as the president very clearly said, if Georgia falls, it’s not only a message to autocrats about our weakness and our fecklessness, but it’s also a domino effect. First point on that.

And the second point on that is, anyone could tell you . . . I moved to Georgia in 2014, I was head of NDI there. By 2016, I knew that there was democratic backsliding. In a way, this is a cautionary tale that we need to have better foresight. We cannot wait until something gets this far down the road and we need to act earlier.

My final point, and as the president said, is more optimistic. There are two things I noticed very much when I was there on my last trip, but has happened over time. The first is the unbelievable transformation of Georgian civil society. What I mean by that is not NGOs in Tbilisi, I mean Georgian civil society.

The second is the absolute weakness of the Georgian Dream Party. On this civil society front, some have fretted that, “Oh, these protests, there’s no leader. Where’s the opposition?” This has been their strength, the fact that the protests were apolitical, not even led by elites or NGOs. They’re organic, they’re decentralized, yet organized. They’re not just youth. They’re not just Tbilisi. They’re not just elites. And it’s this feeling that is really is palpable, Georgians are Europeans and Georgians are Democrats. Full stop. This has become embedded. And all these attempts from Georgian Dream on Russian laws and other autocratic measures is fundamentally rejected by their core. And they’re creative, and they’re proud and they’re confident.

I don’t want it to end like this, but it reminded me of my time in Hong Kong working with the Umbrella Movement. Meanwhile, Georgian Dream has been whittled down to the like absolute dregs and C-minus fascists. They are nothing like the coalition of 2012. There’s no talent left. It is basically the dim ones and the corrupt ones, hence their difficulty in finding a normal president. They’ve become so isolated. And I think the crowning of Kavelashvili is the perfect image of this, isolated, cloistered in the parliament, afraid of their own people, no invitations to the public. And if 54 percent of the Georgian people love this party, supported them, where are they? You’d think they’d be a little upset about sanctions, for example. You’d think that they’d be unhappy with democratic protests and might want to show their support for this party, Georgian Dream. Crickets. And Georgian Dream can’t govern and they’re not governing. Name something that they have done or a law that they’ve passed.

So, I’ll end here. Our task, in addition to making sure that everyone’s on board with the elections being illegitimate, making sure that everyone understands Georgia in the broader context, our task is also to ensure that civil society, this momentum continues and that they have our full support and that includes in the new administration a new USAID that we certainly don’t see cuts in democracy and human rights support for civil society, independent media, et cetera. And to continue to deny Georgian Dream oxygen, which leaders like Representative Wilson are doing. And if we can keep this trajectory, we can head into a good direction, I think.

Peter Rough:

Thanks.

Before we go to Kurt, one follow up, you said something very . . . Well, you said many things that were very interesting, but one I think least new note for me was that you met with the Azeri population in Tbilisi and heard rumblings about Iranian influencing the elections. When I think of election interference in Georgia, I always look north. I don’t look to their southern near neighbor. What role does Iran play then in Georgia?

Laura Thornton:

So, I was fascinated by this. I mean, we have of course heard about Irakli Kobakhidze’s visit to Tehran, and it was mentioned by Representative Wilson and the president. But Iran’s influence in the Azeri region has been ongoing for some time, and I knew about that. I knew that they supported Islamic research centers, and mosques and business people who had studied in Iran. What I didn’t know and what I learned when I was there in December was their active involvement in aiding GD’s campaign. So, they were putting in money and support through messaging to coincide with GD campaign messages.

So, while there weren’t Iranians necessarily there standing side by side with Georgian Dream candidates, they were fueling the same narratives and messages and putting pressure on the community to support GD. Now, who was there very directly was also Azerbaijan. So, you had Azerbaijanian political leaders as well as media figures, literally on stages with GD candidates. So, you’re right, we focus on Russian interference, but Georgian Dream was getting support from other actors as well.

Peter Rough:

Kurt Volker, the floor is yours.

Ambassador Kurt Volker:

Okay. Well, thank you.

So, I thought what I would do is address a similar question to what Congressman Wilson did. It is obvious why it’s in the interest of Georgia and the Georgian people for the US to help them reestablish constitutional government. But I want to talk about why it’s in America’s interest to do that. Why is it in our interest? So, there’s three ways I want to look at this.

The first is just geopolitically, geo-strategically. If you imagine a map, you’ve got Iran in the south, you’ve got Russia in the north. On the other side, on the east you’ve got Central Asia. And then on the other side of that is China, which is doing everything it can to influence Europe. So, Georgia is either a gateway for Central Asia and countries in the Caucasus to Europe and back. And it creates access to energy resources, to minerals, to metals, to trade, to ideas, to development of countries in Central Asia and the Caucasus. It’s either a gateway for all of that, or it’s a barrier between Russia and Iran and sewing up Georgia as well. And it cuts off Central Asia. More than that, it becomes an avenue for the exercise of influence by America’s adversaries in that entire region.

It was mentioned by both the president and Congressman Wilson, the Georgian government’s handing over development of the Anaklia port. This will be China’s first belt and road port on the Black Sea, assuming that it is built. And it is taking it away from a potential group of American investors that had been actively working to try to develop this port. That’s now off and is now looking like is being passed to China. So, the first one is simply geo-strategically.

The second way that this matters to the US is that in the past four years, we have seen America’s adversaries increasingly seek to challenge the United States in various parts of the world. And they’re increasingly working together. Just to dispel out some of that, take a look at the war in Ukraine. You have Iran providing Russia with the Shahed drones that are used to attack Ukrainian cities every night. You have North Korea providing about two thirds of the artillery shells that Russia uses to attack Ukrainian front lines. You have North Korea now providing troops to Russia to help fight Ukrainians there. You had the Russian base in Syria, very active for projecting Russian influence in the wider region and Russia having North Korea’s back when it comes to missile technology development right now and blocking any further UN sanctions on North Korea, and having Iran’s back as it has launched this major war in the Middle East.

So, this network of America’s adversaries has been cooperating and getting stronger. And it is important that we start to push back on this. And Georgia is in many ways a front line state when you think about, are we breaking up this alliance of America’s adversaries or are we losing ground to them? And Georgia is very much a front line in that.

That gets to the third reason why this is in America’s interest as well. There is a global perception that America is declining, that we have been weak. I think the catastrophic withdrawal from Afghanistan cemented that image in the minds of a lot of people in the world. So, people who believe in American values, freedom, democracy, market economy, rule of law, human rights, people who believe in those things are feeling beleaguered and isolated, and dictators are advancing. The Georgian people are, again, emblematic of that. These are people who deeply share Western values, who aligned themselves very publicly with the United States. And for those people to be defeated is seen in the region and in the world as a defeat for the United States. So, we need to understand what this means for us if we allow a small group of people in Georgia to basically deviate from the Constitution and establish a pro-Russia, pro-China, pro-Iranian government.

Peter Rough:

Luke Coffey.

Luke Coffey:

Great.

Thanks, Peter, for moderating this. And thanks to Laura and Kurt for taking time out of your schedule to come here and speak.

A lot has been said, and I’ll sit here and say I’m not going to repeat any of it. I probably will repeat some of it, so you’ll just have to bear with me and listen. Now, what saddens me the most about all of this is that if we were having a big public event like this on Georgia several years ago, in January, of a new president about to enter office, it would be all about what the next administration needs to do to push Georgia across the finish line for NATO, what the next administration needs to do to deepen military cooperation with Georgia, what does the next administration need to do to use Georgia for Europe’s energy security? Instead, we’re here today talking about Georgia’s democratic backsliding, an uncertain future and what the US should be doing about it. It just shows how quickly things can change.

As Laura pointed out, the Georgian Dream we have today is a lot different from what we had in 2012. If you remember, 2012, it was the Georgian Dream Coalition and it was made up of different smaller political parties that had this Euro-Atlantic perspective, this Euro-Atlantic outlook that over the years, the inner core, or the dregs, or the dim ones, as Laura described them, they have pushed out the Euro-Atlanticists, or the Euro-Atlanticists have decided to leave for various reasons. And we are now left with this inner core. This is an inner core of the Georgian Dream movement that is sympathetic, if not outright aligned, with the Kremlin’s worldview. They blame NATO and the United States for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They criticize Western sanctions against Ukraine while at the same time boosting their economic relationship . . . economic sanctions against Russia over Ukraine, while at the same time boosting their economic relationship with Russia.

This is the government that publicly criticizes Georgian volunteers, who leave their life in Georgia to go to Ukraine to fight Russia. And when it’s time, sadly, to repatriate a body back to Georgia, make it difficult with bureaucracy and logistics. Instead of criticizing these Georgians that go to Ukraine to fight, they should be building statues of these Georgians. They should name streets after these Georgian warriors that have gone to Ukraine and have made the ultimate sacrifice. So, we are dealing with a fundamentally different Georgian Dream than what we had just several years ago. And we have to recognize this and use this assessment to better develop our own policies. We have to see what we’re dealing with today in Georgia as part of the larger struggle between the West and Russia. That’s exactly what it is. It’s very simple.

The street protests today are not about the Russian law anymore, however terrible that was. It wasn’t about the questionable and fraudulent elections in October. It is now about Georgia’s identity as being a European country with a European future outside of the Russian orbit. Georgia has been around in some form or another for more than 2,000 years. Just for 200 or so of those years, they’ve been colonized and occupied by Russia. Just because for part of your time you’ve been under Russian control doesn’t mean that this is your destiny forever. Georgia is a European country dating back millennia. Some of the most important foundational creationist myths and ancient Western civilization such as Jason and the Golden Fleece, the punishment of Prometheus, this took place in what is now modern day Georgia. So, Georgia’s future is European because Georgia’s past is European.

We heard Kurt talk about the importance of Georgia as energy transit route. When you look at a map, Russia could use Georgia as a block connecting Caspian oil and gas to Europe and other international markets. Well, I’ll put a finer point on this. Every single oil and gas pipeline, every single rail network, the main motorway east and west in the Caucasus, every major fiber optic cable that does not go through Iran or Russia has to go through Georgia, if you want access to it. That also includes the air corridor that we relied on so much during our 20 years in Afghanistan.

So, one point on why the situation in Georgia matters that I would like to raise that no one has raised so far is one I think that will resonate very well with President-elect Trump, and that is respect. Yes, we should be supporting the Georgian people because they are pursuing their self-determination to be a European country. Yes, it’s important that Georgia pursues this path and it’s important that we push back on Russian disinformation, hybrid warfare and malign activity. Yes, it’s important that we see this as a larger geopolitical struggle between the West and Russia. But for years, the Georgian Dream government has publicly ridiculed and criticized multiple US ambassadors with no response from Washington like we’re some tiny little country that can have our ambassadors pushed around with no consequences.

Our members of Congress are ridiculed publicly by the Georgian Dream government. Commentators, policymakers, think tankers are under constant harassment and attack online or sometimes on television in Georgia, and there’s no consequence. And Americans have lost all respect in Georgia because of this. It’s time that we take steps to not only help the Georgian people, but to re-exert our influence in the country and get that respect back that we deserve. And I think President Trump will look at it from this angle. I think that the Georgian Dream government, if they think that Orban’s going to whisper into Trump’s ear and everything’s going to be okay, I think they might have another thing coming.

I’ll conclude on a more optimistic note. We are at a low point in US-Georgian relations without a doubt, but I like to look at these bilateral relationships in the longer term. And I think that we can overcome this. Any relationship in life, whether it’s with a spouse, or a family member, or a friend has ups and downs. Our bilateral relationship with Georgia is no different. And if we work together with Georgian civil society, if the Georgian people have their legitimate grievances addressed and their voices heard on their future and destiny, then we can get this relationship back on track because it’s in America’s interest to do so, and it’s in the interest of the Georgian people to do so.

Peter Rough:

Thanks, Luke. And while you have Georgia on your mind-

Luke Coffey:

Always on my mind.

Peter Rough:

. . . I’d suggest you also all check out Luke’s Georgia on the Brink from last December at Hudson.org, What the US Should No Next, a fact sheet. And that’s where I’d like to go, what the US should do next, because it seems like the Georgian people have clearly chosen a path of strategic nonviolence to put coercive pressure on Georgia Dream and affect change in country. Of course, Georgia is where the Rose Revolution comes from. There are other revolutions that have their own monikers. The Orange Revolution in Ukraine, the Tulip Revolution, the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, revolutions in the Arab Spring. Some of these are successful, others are not.

We think about the crackdowns in Iran when there were uprisings there. Belarus people went to the streets in 2020. There was an umbrella revolution, which you’ve already referenced in the Far East. Let’s begin, since this is really your particular area of specialty, Laura, what characterizes or what can be the defining American ingredient to help make one of these strategic nonviolence campaigns successful versus in the end, petering out or being cracked down and destroyed by government bent on maintaining power? Or perhaps that’s too superficial and broad of question, but do your best if you can.

Laura Thornton:

No, no, no. It’s a great question, but I don’t have a clear answer. One of the things I think about all the time, I mean, I think we all ponder, what is the special sauce? Why do some fail and some succeed. I mean, I was in, because I’m ancient, I was in Jakarta when Suharto fell, and I’m telling you, you wouldn’t have known that a few days before. These things can sneak up on you. I think what we can do and the United States I think I’m very proud that we’ve done quite a bit in terms of the sticks aspect of this. So, as I mentioned in my remarks, denying that regime of all the oxygen that you can, making sure there are measures in place like sanctions and travel bans, et cetera. It would, of course, be extremely helpful if more . . . Some European countries have joined us, and that’s very welcome and wonderful, an the Baltic states and et cetera. And we would benefit from more transatlantic cooperation. But I often feel like these things are through the complete resilience and determination of domestic players.

I mean, there’s a lot that the international community can do, but in my experience, this often boils down to what’s happening domestically. And that includes both that determination on the part of the protesters. But even then, as we’ve referenced the Umbrella movement, or I was also working with Burmese activists in Myanmar, even with all the determination in the world, it’s sometimes not successful. Where it has been successful are those cracks, the cracks within the ruling regime. So, that’s, again, where our support can be helpful or our sanctions can be helpful, is to help instigate those cracks. And in this case, in Georgia, as we’ve already established, they’re down to the dregs. There is one obvious leader, and if he is no longer seen as invincible or able to protect them, that could lead to different things.

We’ve already seen, for example, senior official in the Ministry of Interior, who’s fled to the United States and is talking more openly about the torture and other behavior of the Georgian Dream regime. And if more cracks like that continue to happen, that could lead to a big change. The other thing is just the state of being ungovernable. And if civil society keeps operating the way it does, if garbage collectors stop collecting the garbage, if civil servants walk out of the job, these are a lot of things to ask in a poor country. But if these things continue to happen, it will become an ungovernable state. And as the President said, what we want is to get to a peaceful negotiation. We don’t want the alternative.

Peter Rough:

Kurt, do we have the right to continue the metaphor, carrot and stick mix in play, or does US strategy need to adjust somewhat?

Ambassador Kurt Volker:

Well, Luke was very direct about this. No, we don’t. We’ve treated this as if it doesn’t matter very much. And we’ve looked the other way when they call US the leader of the global party of war, when they attack the United States, when they attack the EU, when they align themselves with Iran. And we just said, “Oh, well . . .” We’ve completely underplayed this. And even what Laura said about US diplomats not being willing to say that this government is now illegitimate. Why not? Why not? Where is this excessive caution coming from? We ought to be much more direct.

So, there are a couple of things I would suggest that we should be doing right now. And one, follow Congressman Wilson’s lead and formally establish a policy that we do not recognize the current authorities in Georgia as a constitutional government. It was a faked election. They seated the parliament without the presiding of the president of the country, which is required by the constitution. That means the parliament itself, which is constituted on a one-party basis. And the one-party government that that selected and the president of that party that they selected are all extra-constitutional. We should be very clear about saying so and insisting that Georgia get back on the path to constitutional government. That level of clarity has been completely absent from US policy.

The second thing is we have constantly . . . I don’t understand why, we constantly misuse sanctions. Sanctions are best as a threat that is then followed through on when necessary, so that people get the message that there will be a coming sanction unless some behavior changes. We tend to hide the ball. We’ll apply a sanction, but we won’t say what it is or who it applies to. This makes no sense because then you can’t incentivize people. So, we should be putting out there publicly an escalatory ladder of sanctions that will be applied unless we see movement towards an execution of a new free and fair election in Georgia and the restoration of constitutional government. So, it needs to be laid out that this is what’s going to happen.

Then the final thing, I’ll throw this in, it is a broader issue, but we have to ensure that Ukraine survives as a sovereign, independent European democracy and maintains its pathway toward the European Union and NATO. Anything short of that is a victory for Vladimir Putin. And whether Putin wins or Ukraine wins is going to help determine the future of Georgia.

Laura Thornton:

Just to two finger that, I mean, I thought it was fascinating in the Freedom House report on the region, on the broader Eastern Europe and Eurasia region, and they put recommendations to what is stabilizing democracy in the region. And number one is winning the war in Ukraine. When I was there ahead of the elections, when I was talking to Georgian Dream leaders that still talk to me, they were banking on us not defending Ukraine. They were seeing the way the winds were blowing and they wanted to follow the winner.

Ambassador Kurt Volker:

Right. Right. And it gets to Luke’s point about respect or about credibility. People have to see that, “Okay, we can weigh in and we can ensure that Ukraine survives and that gives hope that Georgia survives.”

Peter Rough:

Luke, give us a little teaser from your paper, What the US Should Do Next. What should the US do?

Luke Coffey:

Well, Peter, when you said last December, it made us sound like it’s so old.

Laura Thornton:

Yeah. Ancient.

Peter Rough:

Last year.

Laura Thornton:

TikTok.

Luke Coffey:

But now there are a few other points that I would like to add to that in terms of the recommendations that I put into this paper. But first, I want to address one point very clearly that Kurt reminded me of, and this is this nonsense about the Global War Party pushing Georgia to open up a second front. I’m going to say this as clearly as possible. If I could say it in Georgian, I would, but I can’t. So, I’m going to speak very slow English. Nobody in Washington D.C., no serious policymaker, lawmaker, commentator, has ever once suggested that Georgia should open up a second front against Russia or use military force to get back the two occupied regions. This is a notion of fear that the Georgian Dream has used to frighten the Georgian population to make them believe that the only thing stopping Russia from invading Georgia, or the only thing stopping Georgia from getting into war with Russia is the Georgian Dream government. And this is nonsense. Nobody wants this in Washington, nobody’s asking for it. So, I hope that was clear.

In terms of what else we have to do, I think in the same way that Biden has been indecisive with aid and support to Ukraine, the same can be said with Georgia. The sanctions might come, but they’re always weeks or months too late, and then they’re clouded with secrecy. I suspect that the people sanctioned in terms of travel bans won’t even know it-

Laura Thornton:

Till they get to airport.

Luke Coffey:

. . . until they apply for a visa to come to the United States. And this is the wrong message. We need decisive action. I think we need bold action. We use our veto power inside NATO to block further cooperation at the NATO level with Georgia. This breaks my heart to say this as someone who’s spent more than a decade advocating for NATO-Georgia getting closer, but the situation warns this. We should continue with our suspension of US-Georgian military cooperation. Again, it saddens me to say this, the Georgian military on a per capita basis suffered more casualties in Afghanistan than any country in the world when we were there. But we were at a point that because of the illegitimate government, we cannot cooperate militarily with Georgia any longer.

I think the Department of Homeland Security and the State Department should work together to establish a secure and anonymous website, where protesters can upload photos of security forces that are using brutal tactics. And then we can use our abilities through facial recognition software and the like to make sure that these people never get a visa into the United States. We can share this information with the Schengen area countries and the UK to make sure that these security forces that use brutal tactics don’t get visas to enter Europe as well. But I think most importantly, we have to be decisive with what we do, not these half measures, the dithering. We have to decide what is in America’s interest, what we want to do, and then we have to do it. Now, we’ll caveat this . . . Peter, you asked what’s the secret ingredient, I think, or to the sauce on these revolutions and these movements? It’s the people.

Laura Thornton:

Exactly.

Luke Coffey:

The stuff I hear from the state media in Georgia and on social media that the US is cooking up another color revolution. Well, let me tell you, we lack the ability in the United States to orchestrate and organize revolutions no matter what the Kremlin thinks or says. And actually, it’s disappointing in a way that we couldn’t do this even if we wanted to, but we can’t and we’re not. So, it’s important that the Georgian people continue with their resiliency. We should be doing what we can to support the legitimate voices in Georgia to help them address their grievances in Georgia. But really at the end of the day, it’s going to be determined on the Georgian people.

Laura Thornton:

I think one thing to add just quickly that we haven’t touched upon at all is, also what can we be doing about Imedi TV. There is a dominant propaganda station in Georgia that has poisoned the brains of many Georgians and is basically turned into an RT mini-me with the same fonts, and colors and everything. As I understand, the owner of Imedi is also an American citizen, and I think the UK has taken some action against his business interest, but I think that would also be an important pressure point given the amount of influence they have.

Peter Rough:

Great.

Well, Laura, Luke, Kurt, thanks for supplementing the remarks from Congressman Wilson and from Madam President. Thanks to all of you for being here. Thanks to those of you watching from home. If you tuned in from Atlanta and were enormously confused at the outset, thanks for sticking with us, learning more about Georgia and the Caucasus. And please join us at Hudson.org for more events in the future, research and writing on things Georgia-related and all things around the world. But for now, please join me in thanking our panelists.